"I came out to my bishop today. Told him that I have been toying with suicide. After all was said and done he told me its best to follow through the suicide then to give into men."
WTF?
And the Mormon Church would have you believe that Bishops are inspired and have the gift of discernment. If that is the fruits of the "gift" of discernment, I have NO use for that Bishop's gift, that Church or that god.
As the email continued I did get the impression that all was going to be OK.
But still, WTF?
Oh my God . . .
ReplyDeleteWTF indeed!!
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of moron is leading that congregation, seriously? That bishop should be reported to someone higher up, serious!
Hugs,Miguel
Wow. I agree w/Miguel, that Bishop needs to be removed from his post. Such a dangerous position from w/to advocate for suicide!? I cannot believ it.
ReplyDeleteAs for Mormon doctrine I am pretty sure that murder (including suicide) is ranked above immorality in terms of sinfulness so if this Bishop were weighing up the options in terms of Mormon belief then shouldn't homosexuality have come out as the preferred option?!
Another beef of mine lately is TBM friends who, in conversation w/me about LGBT issues refuse to refrain from calling homosexuality immoral!!! why can't they just leave off w/the judgements but still have a conversation. Argh! some people!
Ugh, sick. How can somebody be so hateful/fearful of "the gay" that they'd wish death on somebody before it? That's just messed up.
ReplyDeleteI wish this were just an isolated incident. It's not. I've written about other cases here.
ReplyDeleteIt's a level of pastoral malpractice that borders on abuse.
What I want to know is, why are other bishops so blind? Bishops seem to fall into two categories: basically good guys, and evil, soul-sucking monsters. The basically good guys *must* be aware of the evil, soul-sucking monsters. There's no way they couldn't be. I think, in any other organization, the clergy, or what passes for it, would be aware of such a problem. After all, the Catholic Church is certainly aware that pedophilia is a problem in certain quarters. And yet, every time something like this comes to light, everyone expresses such surprise, and indignation--"this is an isolated incident!!!" What's up with THAT?
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's any bordering on abuse. That's abuse. Plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteThat makes me so sad.
I've realized that coming out of Mormonism is hard enough. Being gay and coming out of Mormonism would be even tougher because they're judging you for not being strong enough to withstand the temptations. Always feeling judged. My apostasy is based on theological reasons, but the Prop 8 thing didn't help AT ALL! I have many gay friends and my heart goes out to them especially.
ReplyDeletewww.celestialrodeo.blogspot.com
According to a Newsweek article, the bishop of Stuart Matis "pleaded with Stuart. I said if this is a choice between life and the church, he should choose his life." It's a shame this is not representative of all bishops.
ReplyDeletebecause that's what jesus would say.
ReplyDeleteThis is abuse. As hard as it would be for your friend, the name of this bishop should be published. This sort of abuse needs to be put out in the open.
ReplyDeleteApparently, and I just found this out, that there are still some bishops out there who believe that suicide for being gay is a form of Blood atonement.
ReplyDeleteMy WTF moment is just getting deeper!!!
@Miguel, I'm really curious although I don't know what I could do if I knew his name. I'll have to wait and see if he is willing to tell in either case.
This reminds me of rape victim mercy killings in other cultures. Honor before the sanctity of life? That is truly disgusting.
ReplyDeleteI had people who told me the same kind of thing. I was never going to get better, and I would be doing my family and everyone else a favor if I just took myself out of this world. (I have been diagnosed with PTSD after years of being raped by a "worthy" priesthood holder... For a while, I was really crazy. I hated how much I was effecting others with my craziness...)
ReplyDeleteI am so grateful I found a friend willing to fight for my life.
THHTGU - there are many who will fight for your life and the lives of all who have been treated so despicably by the LDS Church. Love to you!
ReplyDeleteMaureen, Thank you! that means a lot. I have found more people outside the church than I ever found in...
ReplyDeleteWell think about it. They've gone from trying to "cure" gays to admitting they can't cure them. They no longer counsel them to commit to commit to heterosexual marriages. Instead, they say: "Never have sex. Don't act on your impure and unnatural urges. Oh yeah, we feel your pain. When you feel lonely just work harder in your callings."
ReplyDeleteThat bishop is merely saying what he really thinks, and he's naughty word I won't say here (what words can I say here? So many come to mind.)
Thanks all for your comments, and links.
ReplyDeleteI had known in the back of my mind that this sort of thing had been part of the historic church culture but, I had never realized that it was something that some would still "practice" so blatantly these days.
My mom sent me the following last night upon reading this post: (I wish she would just post things in the comments section.)
"WOW! I agree. WTF!!!! I actually feel sorry for those poor idiots who accept the call to be a bishop, and all they really do besides screwing up people's lives is damn themselves to hell. And I don't even believe in hell!! However, if there is a hell, I think it will be full of ex-bishops and stake presidents, such as described in your blogs, and others equally as judgemental and stupid, who inflict pain and suffering through their position and authority."
I really wished I could take a break from all of this but it's really not going to stop.
The more gay rights, gay marriage, DADT, and other things are becoming more prevalent in the news, the more people are going to take notice. But with that comes backlash. This country is an exceptionally religious one. Homophobia is so deeply enshrined in religious doctrine, I believe we are in for a long hard struggle for the next 30 years or so.
I followed a link from Koda Think Tank to here. Somehow, Koda Think Tank had found something that led them to me. Now I'm here. And, I'm just sick. So sad with this email - and I only read one line. Gay Dot, I'm sending love your way. I don't know who you are or where you are, but, damn! I am sending love.
ReplyDeleteThank you Angie. I appreciate that.
ReplyDeleteOK all, so you've maybe studied Mormon history, and this still surprises you? Mormonism is about 1 husband + 1 or more wives = OK (i.e., Temple marriage and all that stuff, giving one person--the male/patriarch, of course--the keys to the celestial kingdom). I know, the law of celestial marriage isn't practiced today on this earth, but it's still practiced in the Temples for the life hereafter, as any male priesthood bearer who has lost a wife in this life, but who has been deemed worthy to marry yet another "for time and all eternity" can attest. Gays (and lesbians, who are so rarely mentioned by "progressive" Mormons) have no place in this "Plan of Salvation." What else is new?
ReplyDelete@Boris, if everyone's personal experience in the church were identical, no one would be surprised at some of the complete bullshit that comes out of some of it's members.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt there are bishops out there who might believe it would be better to die than to "fall" into homosexual "sin" or something else regarded as extremely bad, like commit adultery.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I also know that people who are depressed and deeply conflicted tend to hear things in extreme colors and over-interpret what's said to them. Unless that was a direct quote, I would guess the person visiting the bishop probably whittled the discussion down to an oversimplified deduction which the bishop may or may not actually support if confronted with how it sounded to the person he was counseling.
Did the person ask the bishop if that's what he meant and give him a chance to respond? My guess is the bishop did say things which could be construed as implying that, and he might reconsider or clarify if confronted with a statement like, "So what you're basically saying, if taken to conclusion, is _______." I think more people with destructive or illogical views should be called out on them, brought into the light of public scrutiny with the opportunity to respond to them, forcing them to either correct a misunderstanding, reveal themselves for what they are, or recognize and change their errors.
Still, there's no doubt that there are lingering ideas in Mormon culture, such as the idea that it's more virtuous and holy to die defending yourself than to "let" yourself be raped, which sound noble on some level but are hugely destructive.
@Original Mohomie, it's really hard to say what was really said either way. Those are his words the way he saw it. And he hasn't emailed any follow ups to clarify. I'm sure there is more to this story than what I was able to get, but I'm not going dismiss what he feels his experience was.
ReplyDeleteWow. Shame on him. If that person, whoever he is, needs others to talk to... please give him my email. That is horrible.
ReplyDeleteThat's obscenely cruel and inhumane. Meanwhile they continue to bill themselves as "pro-family" and "pro-life". Ugh.
ReplyDelete